Science and Research Committee on June 4th, 2024

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Terrific. Thank you.

With a minute and a half left, I will go again to Ms. Kopequaluk.

You mentioned sustainable finance. I also sit on the Standing Committee on Environment, where we are doing a study on sustainable finance right now and on the role that international capital can play in providing the resources for solutions. Could you expand a bit more on sustainable finance and how Inuit can play a role in decisions around that?

[Lisa Koperqualuk]

Right. I think I meant sustainable shipping.

Or, is this about the climate finance through...?

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Climate finance, yes.

[Lisa Koperqualuk]

Right.

Our issue here in our advocacy at the UNFCCC process has been having indigenous peoples have access to climate financing. Now in Canada, we don't. We understand that Canada spends millions of dollars in developing countries for their climate work, so I think that's the big difference. If we had access to more climate financing, we would be able to do work on adaptation. We would be able to dedicate more time to mitigation costs.

We do get consultations, but we would build capacity in our ICC Canada office itself. I am one person who goes to these climate meetings, with an adviser, and we have youth and knowledge holders and so on, but our office has limited capacity—

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Thank you. That's our time.

[Lisa Koperqualuk]

Thank you.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

We'll now turn to MP Blanchette-Joncas for six minutes.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I thank the witnesses who are here with us today.

My first question is for Mr. Henry Burgess.

Last week, your colleague, Anne Barker, appeared before us. She is the director of the National Research Council of Canada’s Arctic and northern challenge program. She said that federal government underfunding was causing problems for allocations or determining who’s filling that space to fund research.

I’d like to hear your comments on that. Based on what you’re seeing first-hand, what are the consequences of the federal government chronically underfunding research in the Arctic?

[Henry Burgess]

Thank you for your question.

I'm not in a position to give a view on the level of funding and the appropriateness of funding within the Canadian federal system. That's not something that I can address in those terms, but in thinking about it in a U.K. context, I would say that, of course, as researchers, as people committed to understanding climate change across the Arctic, we would all want to see as much investment as possible in that, because we realize the urgency of it, and we realize what really major gains there are to be got, nationally and internationally, from knowing more about what's happening so that we can mitigate and also adapt to it.

That's as true in the U.K. as it is elsewhere. There is, frankly, never enough funding for science, and particularly Arctic science, but I can't get into the detail of a specific amount.

I would say that the work we've done through the CINUK programme and elsewhere with the National Research Council has shown that they are incredibly positive, supportive and skilled in international work, and we really value that. The work we are doing with them is something that will bring real benefits to Canada, but Canada in terms of internationally as well, growing on knowledge of the change that's happening in the Arctic.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

You work with the United Kingdom. How does Canada compare with the United Kingdom in terms of its infrastructure and the number of researchers conducting scientific research in the Arctic?

[Henry Burgess]

I don't have the exact figures on hand, but I would say that there are proportionally more researchers in Canada than there are in the U.K. What's interesting is that there was a study by the University of the Arctic that was released in the summer of 2023 that looked at the ranking of countries in producing Arctic science publications. It ranked Canada third in the world when it came to the volume of Arctic science publications and put the U.K. at number six. Canada is a major player in Arctic science and, as the U.K., we're very keen and grateful for the partnership that we have with your federal research agencies and others.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

You said Canada is a major player in research in the Arctic. Are you saying that Canada is a world leader in northern research?

[Henry Burgess]

I would say that, if you are third in the world in the number of Arctic science publications, that puts you world class. Yes, I would safely say that.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

I’m not sure I fully understand, Mr. Burgess. I have before me the chief science advisor’s report, entitled, “The Polar Continental Shelf Program and the Rapid Rise of Northern Research”. This report dates back to 2023, which is not that long ago. I will read you an excerpt, quoting the chief science advisor: “Canada has one of the largest territorial claims in the Arctic. It should aspire to be a leader among circumpolar nations in terms of northern research, in much the same way it strives to be a global leader in other disciplines.”

So, are you telling me we’re not getting the truth from the chief science advisor?

[Henry Burgess]

I'm not familiar with the details of the report, but, in all of our countries, in all our international work, we strive to be as good as we possibly can be. From the quote you read out there, I got the sense that she wanted Canada to be as good as possible, rather than saying that it wasn't world class at the moment. All the connections that we've had with the partners through the CINUK programme have shown that Canada has the most supportive, patient and skilled connections. I have no doubt that, from our perspective, Canada is one of many countries that's world leading in Arctic science. This is very much an international partnership. Very few countries do this alone; it's the international partnerships that make the real difference.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Very well, Mr. Burgess. I’m just trying to understand in order to help you.

On the one hand, the chief science advisor is saying one thing. On the other hand, you, the head of the National Research Council of Canada’s Arctic office, are saying another. You will therefore understand there’s some confusion.

I’m trying to determine who’s telling the truth. Is it the chief science advisor? Is it you? Are there other people, such as scientific experts, who support what you’re saying and belie what the chief science advisor said in her last report?

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Be very brief

[Henry Burgess]

You'll have to forgive me, as I'm not an expert in the Canadian kind of science funding models and individual bodies. From my own experience, having seen Canadian researchers at international meetings, I know that in the work that happens within the International Arctic Science Committee and at events like ArcticNet and elsewhere, I see the quality and the skill of the researchers there, and I put them at a world-class level.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Thank you, Mr. Burgess.

Now we will turn to Mr. Cannings for six minutes, please.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

Thank you to both witnesses for being here today. I'm going to start with Mr. Burgess.

What I want to start with is the fact that, as we know, the Arctic is being impacted by climate change much more than other parts of the world, and those changes, whether from reduction in sea ice or release of methane from melting permafrost, are causing vicious cycles that are affecting the rest of the world.

Your group has gone into this in previous research projects. I would first of all want to know if those research projects are continuing. How do you support those projects? Do you have scientists that do them themselves? Do you use funding for researchers in various countries to do them? What's your model of delivery for that research?

[Henry Burgess]

Thank you for your question.

I represent the Natural Environment Research Council. That's one of seven councils under the UK Research and Innovation organization. We are funding bodies, essentially. It's a mixture.

There are research centres funded by UKRI, such as the British Antarctic Survey, the National Oceanography Centre and others. We have our own researchers and a fleet of ships—blue-water and ice-capable vessels—that work in the Arctic, as well as planes and a research station. There is direct capacity there. It's a bit like the National Research Council. Also, UKRI is a funder of science with competitive grants. Some of those are at a relatively small scale for people to bid into. Others are more strategic, directed funds—a bit like the CINUK programme I was talking about.

It's a mixture of funding for universities and research centres, together with direct research that comes from UKRI employees as part of research centres.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Are there pots of money assigned to certain topics? I know in the past that you had Arctic research to ask questions about climate impacts both in the Arctic and beyond. Do you have those as directed funds?

[Henry Burgess]

Yes, some of the funds are directed.

In the past, we had the Arctic research program and the changing Arctic ocean program. Both of those were strategic investments through the Natural Environment Research Council. The money was placed on the table, the questions were set and it was then for universities and research centres to bid into that money with good ideas. There is that strategic level. There's also the day-to-day funding, if you like, where we leave it up to researchers themselves to come up with particular ideas they might have and that they think should be funded. Then there's something in the middle, which is the opportunity for researchers to group together to design individual research questions themselves. That goes out for wider opportunities and funding.

It's a mixed market, essentially.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

You mentioned working with Polar Knowledge Canada and Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami. How does that work? How do you manage those very important partnerships when you're working in the Arctic?