Science and Research Committee on June 18th, 2024

[Dany Drouin]

The 40,000 tonnes is an estimation of what is not recycled, of what doesn't go into the landfill and of the residual that has been validated a few times.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

There's no way of knowing that's accurate, because another concerning statement—for me, at least—you made is that there are plastics everywhere, that everywhere you look in Canada, there are plastics. That's not the case. If you want to see plastic pollution, there are pictures on the Internet of oceans with blobs of plastic, which is a problem. That plastic is a problem. I don't see plastic in our environment everywhere I look.

It casts doubt on the 40,000 tonnes number, because I don't think everyone who goes to the beach this weekend is going to see plastics littered everywhere. It is a problem, and we should be addressing the problem. There are some issues with municipalities deciding to remove garbage cans or recycling depots throughout the country, which is causing people to litter or not have another solution.

I know my time is almost up. I am very encouraged by some of the testimony that I heard today. I think we should be working towards making Canada a superpower of plastics recycling, and to your point, there's a lot of value, still, in the material we're putting in the ground.

I have one last question on the plastic in the ocean. The majority is ghost gear. Is that correct?

[Dany Drouin]

There are also a lot of microplastics.

[Corey Tochor, Conservative, Saskatoon—University, SK]

I mean the majority of the weight. There are different studies out there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

We're quite a bit over time on that. A written answer would be great.

Thank you, Mr. Tochor.

We'll now turn to MP Jaczek for her five-minute round.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Monsieur Drouin.

You have alluded to the federal government's responsibilities in collecting data and advancing solutions. When we look at some of the Stats Canada data collected on, I presume, a national level of the percentage of plastics going to landfills and not being recovered in any way, do you break that down?

As we've already heard, there are so many jurisdictions involved: provinces, territories and regional municipalities. Where I come from, in the region of York, there is local municipal collection. Do you break things right down to the municipality responsible for the recycling of these plastics? Do you report that back in any fashion directly to those municipalities?

[Dany Drouin]

I will have to get back to you on the breakdown to municipalities. There is, however, a breakdown to provinces and territories. We also communicate the information back to them because it's essential for their own policies and for how they establish and monitor them. We do have that level of sharing of information.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

That would be very valuable because how can people improve if they don't understand what's happening on the ground in their local area? As many people have said, consumers are very responsible for putting stuff in their blue boxes, but then they disappear.

On extended producer responsibility, you've said there is an economic issue and that, essentially, money is being lost because the product is going into landfills. I would understand that if producers had some ability to collect the waste themselves, but it doesn't work that way; it goes to the municipal landfill. How do you, in any way, calculate the dollar value that the producer needs to provide to offset the cost to the municipality for recycling? I don't understand how you would calculate the dollar value.

[Dany Drouin]

If you look at any given EPR legislation—for example in Ontario or B.C—for each category of product it covers, whether it's packaging or a TV, there is a fee associated with it that the provinces set themselves. It is sometimes by weight and sometimes by unit, so one TV would equal a fee of.... That is how the fees and costs for the EPR programs are set up to offset municipal operations.

In many cases, what we see in Canada is that the industry will group itself as a producer responsibility organization, and sometimes they can operate the facilities in a particular municipality. Other times the municipality keeps operating them and then collects the fees from the producer responsibility organization.

There are a few ways that it's being done in Canada at least.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

Are there any penalties that you're aware of if a producer refuses to participate?

[Dany Drouin]

I would have to get back to you on that, but I would think that every province or territory's legislation on EPR does have consequences for non-compliance.

[Helena Jaczek, Liberal, Markham—Stouffville, ON]

It just strikes me that they would need an army of people inspecting facilities and counting the number of TVs being deposited. It seems like an extraordinarily bureaucratic exercise. Could you relieve me of this apprehension?

[Dany Drouin]

The purpose of the federal plastics registry, which was launched recently, is to—

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Give a quick answer, please.

[Dany Drouin]

It is for mandatory reporting that is meant to be transparent, and it's available to authorities and the public.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Thank you very much.

Now we'll turn to MP Blanchette-Joncas for two and a half minutes.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'll continue with Mr. Drouin.

You spoke to us about the importance of the new federal plastics registry program. As you know, Canada has not reinvented the wheel with this initiative. The EU created a similar registry in 2018, Japan in 2021, and Australia in 2021. So we're three to five years behind the countries I've just named.

In your opinion, is it due to a lack of vision or a lack of political courage?

[Dany Drouin]

I'll let you answer that.

However, in the federal government, we observed that there were a few provincial registries, but that there was no harmonization and that it wasn't covered in the same way. That's what prompted us to implement one for the entire country.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Drouin, I think I know the answer to my next question. However, I'd like to hear yours, since you're the expert.

You advise the government on public policy and then on problem solving. Your reports say that plastics are a threat to ecosystems, that they aren't being managed sustainably. In Canada, one tenth of plastic products are recycled.

I just named some countries that are three to five years ahead of us. You don't want to answer the question. What advice did you give the government? You've seen the list of those countries, though. Do you have Internet in your department?

[Dany Drouin]

In fact, what we advise the government to do is part of a process to which we bring a perspective, but there are others too.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Drouin, the important question is this. When did your department first advise the federal government to implement a plastics registry?

[Dany Drouin]

I can't answer questions about the internal policy development process, as I am bound by a code of ethics. However, I can tell you that, in 2018, the provincial, territorial and federal ministers met and realized that we needed a Canadian plastics strategy. They all agreed on that.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Mr. Drouin, I would still like an answer, in the interest of transparency for the general public, who pays your salary and the salaries of the employees in your department. If this is important, amazing advice, why shouldn't the public know about it?

[Dany Drouin]

During the policy development process, the department provides advice on a regular basis. This advice is based on science and is intended for the government.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Okay.