Science and Research Committee on June 18th, 2024

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'll continue with you, Ms. Wirsig. I want to understand, in concrete terms, what the federal government can do to try to convince the industries to sign on to the various changes. Right now, we have multinationals that believe they're above federal law. They tell us about their economic interests; when it comes to environmental interests, that's not their priority.

So we have a government that's failing to enforce the regulations. Some countries have actually implemented concrete solutions. I would like to hear your opinion on that.

What should the federal government do? Right now, the train is going by, and we're going off the rails.

[Karen Wirsig]

First of all, we are hoping the government wins the appeal of the case against the listing of plastic manufactured items as toxic under CEPA. That appeal is scheduled to be heard next week. That's one thing they need to do well and win, and then stay the course and work with international partners in coordination. Canada is not the only country that has run into roadblocks from the chemical industry. There are examples of court cases in other countries. There was one in Mexico to try to stop the refilling of beverage containers, if I'm not mistaken.

There are other challenges around the world. We just need to persevere. We need to recognize that public health, environmental health and public interest need to come ahead of profits in this case, because we can't have both an extremely strong plastics industry and a safe environment. That has not proven to be the case in the last 20 years. As the amount of plastic has been increasing in the world and profits are going up in that industry, it is not conducive to the future of the planet and the future of our health.

We really need to take a look at that, and the government needs to take it seriously. We need to stop subsidizing plastic production, stop subsidizing pipelines—I fully agree with you there—and focus on environmental protection.

[Maxime Blanchette-Joncas, Bloc, Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Thank you.

We will now turn to Mr. Cannings for two and a half minutes.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I just want to wrap up by talking about the plastics treaty process that we're in on a global scale. We had meetings here in Ottawa recently, and the plans are to have a finalized treaty done by the end of this year, with another meeting in South Korea.

I'm wondering if you could comment on, first of all, what you would like to see that treaty look like, where global co-operation should bring us and what your concerns may be if we come up with a very watered-down treaty that leaves everything voluntary and says to do more waste management. Where do you think that's going, and where should it be going?

[Karen Wirsig]

I'll start with where it should be going. All of the environmentalists involved in that treaty process as observers, and some of the member states as well, are very clear that we need a global, legally binding treaty with measures that limit the production of plastics worldwide and limit trade in plastics in favour of other types of trade practices that are supportive of healthy economies. That would include bans on the most problematic products, which Canada has started with, and on the most problematic chemical additives in plastics, and a scientific committee that can help lead us through the development of measures over time as we get more information and as our economy hopefully shifts away from the linear, throwaway society that we have today.

What we have right now is a bit of a roadblock with a small group of countries that seem highly connected to industry, whether it be their own national industries or private industry, led largely by multinationals out of the United States, which are also present in Canada, that are trying to block efforts for international co-operation on plastics. To get over that hump, we need to think about what we've done before in Canada, which was host a Montreal protocol. That managed to phase out ozone-depleting substances. It didn't start with all the countries signing on. It started with the committed countries signing on and it built over time. The other countries saw the wisdom in it, and we managed to phase out those chemicals.

We need to do the same for plastics—keep our eye on the prize, sign a treaty with the countries that are most committed to it and work with science and indigenous leaders to figure out a way through that is fair to everyone, that follows evidence and that gets international co-operation to ensure that our planet will be healthy for generations to come.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Thank you very much for that.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

I think we have time, as we did on the previous panel, for a final two questions of two and a half minutes.

We'll start with MP Lobb.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I want to thank our witness here for the last panel of the day.

My first question is about the comment you made about a throwaway society and throwaway consumption. It's a term I've used before too.

What role do you think the Walmarts, the Canadian Tires and the Amazons—and I'm not picking on them; they're the ones that come to mind—have in this plastic mess out there? I'm not against plastic. I understand it has a role and it makes sense in some cases, but they have a big role in this whole thing, don't you think?

[Karen Wirsig]

I very much agree with you. Thanks for the question.

Big retailers are very much peddling a lot of single-use throwaway packaging and even products. They are at the heart of the supply chain. They take those products from manufacturers and get them to us, so they're key in this. They're the ones we know and see every day, along with their practices. They should be doing much more to eliminate single-use plastics from their own supply chains and should help us with reverse logistics so we can get things back to them and those things can be repaired, cleaned, reused and put back on the market. We believe retailers will play a very big role in that, and they need to come to the table ready to do more than just pretend to recycle their plastics.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

There's one other thing, and anybody who's recently had young children, like grandparents and parents, will know what I'm talking about when I say this. After your kids reach a certain age and no longer play with all their plastic toys, you wonder what the hell you're going to do with all of them. What are people supposed to do with all the toys that kids have? Nobody wants them. Most of these toys are really single-use toys. What are people supposed to do with those things right now?

[Karen Wirsig]

Unfortunately, those are largely landfilled. That is the big problem.

There are lots of groups now looking at the idea of sharing so that not everybody has to buy. Every time you have a kid, you have to buy your own fleet of toys or clothing, and clothing is another big source of plastic pollution. It's the idea of sharing so that your child for this stage of development likes these toys and needs this clothing. You're going to use them and make sure these products are durable and can be washed, sanitized and passed on to somebody else.

We need systems for that kind of reuse and repair, and we don't have those today. There are some Facebook groups making that happen or other types of community bulletin boards through which some of the sharing happens. A toy library, for example, would be a fantastic thing for a community. People could share toys just as we share tools sometimes today or share books.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

I believe they have that in Toronto, so there you go. Go Toronto.

We'll ask MP Kelloway to bring it home for us for two and a half minutes.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

There you go. I'm bringing it home.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

I'm bringing it home to conclude the committee.

A lot of great questions have been posed to you over the last hour. Being the only witness and taking questions without a break is a challenging feat. Thank you for your answers.

At some point we're going to have a report. Let's just say in the future you're going to open up the report. What are three recommendations you would like to see in it?

[Karen Wirsig]

Increase the focus of science on microplastics and human health and on plastics additives and human health. In a science and research agenda, that needs to be underscored. Work through NSERC and SSHRC. Support the development of an independent science and indigenous knowledge panel globally that can help steer the implementation of a global plastics treaty that is evidence-based and that addresses the need for global co-operation in science. Urge, on the policy front, a focus on systems redesign as opposed to material redesign. Although I understand that some material redesign will be important, with our bigger problems today, the priority really needs to be on systems redesign.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

I have just a few more seconds left here, but—

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

You actually have a minute.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Okay.

You talked about what you would like to see in the report. What wouldn't you want to see in the report?

[Karen Wirsig]

I hope the report doesn't reflect that there's some way, with plastics recycling research, that we can solve the plastic pollution problem if we are much more innovative in plastics recycling. I really hope this conclusion doesn't get drawn in this study, because history has shown that this is not a good use of our time and effort at this time.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thanks very much.

Hopefully I brought it home, whatever that means.

[The Chair, Liberal, Valerie Bradford]

Yes, you did.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

You also used common sense.