Evidence of meeting #115 for Transport, Infrastructure and Communities in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was federal.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Kelly Gillis  Deputy Minister, Office of Infrastructure of Canada

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 115 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities.

Pursuant to Standing Order 81(4), the committee commenced consideration of the main estimates, 2024-25.

Before we begin, I'd like to remind all members and other meeting participants in the room of the following important preventative measures. To prevent disruptive and potentially harmful audio feedback incidents that can cause injuries, all in-person participants are reminded to keep their earpieces away from all microphones at all times. As indicated in the communiqué from the Speaker to all members on Monday, April 29, the following measures have been taken to help prevent audio feedback incidents. All earpieces have been replaced by a model that greatly reduces the probability of audio feedback. The new earpieces are black in colour, whereas the former earpieces were grey. Please only use the black approved earpiece. By default, all unused earpieces will be unplugged at the start of the meeting.

When you are not using your earpiece, please place it face down in the middle of the sticker that you will find on the table. Please consult the cards on the table for guidelines on how to prevent audio feedback incidents. The room layout has been adjusted to increase the distance between microphones and reduce the chance of feedback from an ambient earpiece. These measures are in place so that we can conduct our business without interruption and to protect the health and safety of all participants, including our interpreters. Thank you all for your participation.

Colleagues, I would now like to welcome our witnesses. Appearing before us for the first hour, we have the Honourable Sean Fraser, Minister of Housing, Infrastructure and Communities.

Welcome to you, Minister. It's always a pleasure to have you here.

From the Office of Infrastructure Canada, we have Kelly Gillis, deputy minister.

Welcome to you. It's good to have you back.

We will begin with opening remarks.

Minister, I turn the floor over to you. You have five minutes, please.

11:05 a.m.

Central Nova Nova Scotia

Liberal

Sean Fraser LiberalMinister of Housing

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Colleagues, I am pleased to be here to discuss the recent budget, and more specifically the measures to support infrastructure investments across the country.

It's good to be back. As I mentioned the last time I visited, I spent a few years sitting on this committee and find the work engaging. I'm glad to be able to continue to work with all of you to advance the work on behalf of Infrastructure Canada.

I'll obviously be focusing on some measures in the recent federal budget, but I'm happy to take what questions you may have from across the portfolio.

It's important to reflect on why investing in infrastructure is important. It has an opportunity to create jobs in the short term, certainly, but also to build stronger communities and more vibrant economies, if we make smart investment decisions that help set the stage for long-term economic growth and healthy, livable communities.

There are a number of different ways I can see this happening. You don't have to think too long before you come up with examples of the types of essential infrastructure the federal government funds in your communities. In fact, I hazard to guess there's not a member of Parliament here whose riding hasn't benefited from tens or perhaps hundreds of millions of dollars in federal infrastructure investment since 2015.

The different kinds of infrastructure that you'll see we tend to focus on includes municipal infrastructure, like water and waste water to help enable more housing output; public transit infrastructure to make sure people in communities both big and small can access the services and opportunities that set them and their families up for success; different kinds of road or bridge projects, which are essential for transportation networks in communities of different sizes; and climate-resilient infrastructure to make sure our communities are set up to withstand the challenges of more severe weather events with the changing climate. We're making investments to ensure that we have access to clean electricity not only to power our communities today but also to solicit industrial opportunities from clean-growth players in the economy who are pursuing clean-growth opportunities in Canada. There's also recreational, cultural and heritage infrastructure that makes our communities more vibrant and dynamic places to live.

As you go through each of these different types of infrastructure, you realize that, in most instances, there's some kind of corresponding federal fund to help out with the cost. I mentioned municipal infrastructure including water and waste water. This is essential not only to put people to work installing the pipes that are necessary for a functioning water and waste-water system, but also to make sure that we can build more houses and achieve what has become a major social concern for Canadians, particularly young Canadians, which is building out the housing stock to cure the supply gap that exists.

This is where the new Canada housing infrastructure fund comes in. It's a $6-billion fund through which we're contributing to the cost of these municipal infrastructure projects. We're also negotiating with municipalities and provinces to ensure that, as we make investments in infrastructure, decisions are being taken at a more local level to ensure that we get the most out of the infrastructure that already exists. This is going to reduce the cost for municipal taxpayers but also make it cheaper for people to live in communities near services and opportunities and, frankly, the infrastructure that already exists.

Some of the ways we're going to do this include saying to our partners in negotiations that they can have access to this money if they adopt certain kinds of changes, including more as-of-right zoning, to make it easier to maximize the capacity of existing infrastructure. That includes placing a freeze on development cost charges, so that we don't just increase the cost of building new homes, which places the price further out of reach for people who are not already in the market.

The adoption of the designs in the upcoming national home design catalogue, and a series of other measures, will make it easier and faster to build homes and to reduce the cost pressures on the infrastructure.

Similarly, with public transit, we're not just saying we're transferring money carte blanche to build out a system with no federal input. We want to make sure that we have enough riders for those systems and we want to increase density within walking distance to those transit stations, so that we're building more sustainable public transit systems that allow us to get the best return for every dollar we invest.

When it comes to community and cultural spaces, it's important to me that we continue to invest, in particular in the green and inclusive community buildings fund, which received a top-up of $400 million in the recent federal budget, on top of the $4-billion program, which is helping ensure that communities have access to those vibrant community and cultural spaces.

There are a number of different funds that we continue to have on the table, whether it's the disaster mitigation and adaptation fund, provincially managed funds that are run through bilateral agreements such as the investing in Canada infrastructure program, or funds that support infrastructure that are run through other departments, like the national trade corridors fund or funds through Canadian Heritage for cultural spaces.

You'll see that this is a priority for the current federal government because we want to help with the cost of building communities, and we would be very happy to take what questions you may have on our plans to do so.

Thank you so much, everyone. It's a pleasure to be here.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

Thank you very much, Minister.

We'll begin our lines of questioning today with Dr. Lewis.

Dr. Lewis, the floor is yours. You have six minutes, please.

May 21st, 2024 / 11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Thank you, Minister, for appearing today.

I just want to turn to some of the issues you mentioned under housing. In the city of Toronto, since the Liberals signed their housing accelerator fund agreement in December 2023, housing starts have gone down by 21%. There were 6,568 housing starts in Toronto in the Q1 period of 2023. In the Q1 period of 2024, there were 5,188.

When you testified at the human resources committee, you confirmed that freezing or lowering development charges was not a precondition of any housing accelerator agreements. Can you confirm that freezing or lowering development charges was not a condition in Toronto's $471-million HAF agreement?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

First, through you, Mr. Chair, on the issue of housing starts in the first quarter, nationally, we saw an increase of 16%. We are seeing some downward pressure as a result of higher interest rates being priced into the system when people are looking to start or not start a project. That is why we continue to put more measures on the table, such as tax cuts, changes to municipal zoning and other measures to help speed up the pace of construction.

With respect to the issue of development cost charges, we've decided to do that through the Canada housing infrastructure fund. I'll note one point of contrast between our plans. The Conservative plan that was put forward includes no measures to address the issue of development cost charges. They're very real in terms of their impact on housing affordability and production, but we've chosen to do that a different way.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Minister, thank you.

I would like to move on to ask you about specific development charges, since you raised them. From 2013 to 2023, development charges increased in Toronto by 370%. On May 1, 2024, five months after signing the HAF agreement, Toronto raised development charges by an additional 20.7%.

The last time you were here at committee, you touched on this. However, I want you to commit today, Minister, to rectifying this and reimbursing those charges to homeowners in some capacity.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

I'm sorry. Which charges do you mean?

You're talking about a reimbursement. There's no money that's come to the federal government to be reimbursed.

Could I just get clarity on what monies the federal government has received that you're seeking to have reimbursed?

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

The HAF agreement is specifically what I'm speaking about, Minister. You're familiar with that. Is that correct?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Yes, but as a point of clarity, the question asked for a reimbursement. You're talking about the housing accelerator fund, but you asked for the reimbursement to be paid to residents. I'm trying to figure out which money residents would have paid that you're now asking to be reimbursed.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

We know that taxes on development charges are a significant impediment to getting more houses built. Is that not correct?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

Yes, I agree.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

It is a primary reason why projects are no longer pencilled out. Is that correct?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

I wouldn't say it's a primary reason. It's one of several important factors.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

You have given $4.4 billion without addressing this, and no homes have been built. Isn't that correct, Minister?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

No, that's not correct. Neither the $4.4 billion figure nor the fact that no homes have been built is correct. Both of those are incorrect.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Minister, isn't it a fact that the major impediment to building homes right now is these development charges? We have seen these costs increase, especially in the city of Toronto, by 370%.

You have not made a commitment to do anything to lower these costs for these residents. Will you commit to that today?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

That's also false. In fact, this was a key feature of the recent Canada housing infrastructure fund.

I find it curious, as well, that the Conservative plan, which has been published and has draft legislation sitting and waiting to be brought forward, has no measures that address the issue of development cost charges. We're literally the only party that has put forward a plan that includes specific measures to address them.

Again, if you're going to look for someone who has actually authorized these development cost charges, they're authorized for municipalities to use by provincial legislation. If you want to raise the issue with someone who has not been clear on their position, you can talk to your party leader, or perhaps you could write to the provincial Conservative government in Ontario.

However, when it comes to development cost charges, we have put forward a plan that will limit increases to the Canada housing infrastructure fund, compared to your own party, which, despite your questions today, has yet to put forward any plan to address these issues.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Minister, that's not what the residents of Toronto are feeling.

Let me just ask about the CMHC situation.

Minister, how many CMHC staff have received bonuses? Did the CEO of CMHC receive a bonus this year?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

I don't know the answer to how many staff members would have received bonuses.

I don't know if our deputy minister has that information.

11:15 a.m.

Kelly Gillis Deputy Minister, Office of Infrastructure of Canada

I do not. That would be through the board of directors of CMHC.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

There was $27 million in bonuses in 2023 paid by taxpayers. These same taxpayers can't afford to buy these homes, yet they are paying executives and staff at CMHC for bonuses for....

There has been no increase in the homes built in 2023. Isn't that correct, Minister?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Sean Fraser Liberal Central Nova, NS

When it comes to compensation for those who work for Crown corporations of the public service, my view is that it should be independent of the elected levels. I think that's a recipe for disaster.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Leslyn Lewis Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Don't you oversee that portfolio?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Peter Schiefke

Thank you, Minister. Thank you, Dr. Lewis.

Unfortunately, we're out of time there. I'm trying to to respect everybody's time.

Next up, we have Mr. Iacono.

Mr. Iacono, you have six minutes.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Angelo Iacono Liberal Alfred-Pellan, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, Minister. It's always a pleasure to welcome you and to ask you questions.

The Canada Infrastructure Bank is delivering results, including clean energy investments. The bank is making investments in your province through a partnership with Nova Scotia Power and 13 indigenous communities. Can you explain the importance of that investment for your province?

Also, why do you think the Conservatives are opposed to supporting this kind of positive investment in First Nations communities and Atlantic Canadians?