Veterans Affairs Committee on June 17th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting 101 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Let me finish my introduction, please.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Thursday, March 9, 2023, the committee is commencing its study on the recognition of Persian Gulf veterans.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

I would like to remind all members and participants in the room to consult the cards on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents. So please keep in mind the preventative measures in place to protect the health and safety—

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

On a point of order, there's no interpretation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Okay, there's no interpretation.

We're going to suspend for just one minute to give the technicians the opportunity to correct the situation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

I call the meeting back to order. I thank the technicians for solving the problem.

I was reminding you to be very careful with the earpieces. We ask that when you have the floor and your microphone is on, you place the earpiece face down in the designated spot. As a reminder, all comments by members should be addressed through the chair.

Joining us today are senior officials from Veterans Affairs Canada, whom I'd like to thank for being with us. They are Amy Meunier, assistant deputy minister, commemoration and public affairs branch, and Pierre Tessier, assistant deputy minister, strategic policy, planning and performance branch.

Mr. Richards has a point of order.

Go ahead, Mr. Richards.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

Thanks, Chair.

It would be helpful for there to be an explanation of how we ended up here. People who follow this committee will note that the following motion was agreed to on March 18:

That the debate on [Blake Richards'] motion, as amended, moved on Wednesday, December 20, 2023, be adjourned until the review of the report on the study of the experience of women veterans is completed; that, in relation to the study on transition to civilian life, the committee hold the meeting with witnesses that has been postponed; and, that the committee then resume debate on his motion.

That was the motion surrounding the controversy of the Afghanistan monument, with interference of the Prime Minister's Office. It requested documents to find out what exactly was taking place there.

Those who follow the committee will note that this has not yet been resolved, and here we are for an important motion, but on another topic altogether, the Persian Gulf veterans. That is important, but it's also important for people who are watching and follow this to understand exactly why we are not continuing to work on that motion, which the committee was supposed to be working on until it was completed.

I wonder if you could fill folks in on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Mr. Casey.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

It's on the same point of order, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank Mr. Richards for reading the motion. You will note the motion says that the debate on the Afghanistan monument would be resumed. It doesn't say that it would be resumed to its completion.

It is open to the committee at any time to adjourn debate on a motion to pick up other business. All of those things were not contemplated by the motion to resume. That was simply a sequencing matter such that in the order of business, we would come back to the motion. It doesn't say that we would deal with nothing else. The motion doesn't say that—

[An hon. member]

Oh, oh!

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Excuse me. Nobody interrupted you.

[Blake Richards, Conservative, Banff—Airdrie, AB]

I was just commenting [Inaudible—Editor], Sean. That's all.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

The motion does not say that there would be no other business before the committee if the committee so decided. It is a motion to resume, not something requiring the committee to deal with it right through to completion. I expect that's helpful, but the fact is, the notice of meeting says that we're going to deal with this matter and here we are.

Those are my submissions on the point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, both of you.

As you said, Sean, with the motion, we can still have a discussion about the monument.

Mr. Richards said that people are following or watching. I know this was in public, but since then, we have had a lot of meetings on committee business in private, so members of the committee could have discussed the situation.

At any time, you can resume debate on that motion and we will come back to it.

I have Mrs. Wagantall.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you, Chair. I appreciate it.

I want to make a comment, as Mr. Casey did, in regard to what my colleague said.

The agreement we came to, which is reflected in the minutes, was very specifically to do what we all needed to do. That was to make sure the women's study was completed and that witnesses who had not been able to give their testimony on the transition study were able to.

In good faith, we had a very significant discussion, and the minutes came out of that. I talked personally with Rachel Blaney about this, because we're the women on this committee, and it was very important that the study be completed. It says very clearly that once those two things were done, we would resume debate—

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

We did.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

—on this motion.

Excuse me. I'm speaking now. Please don't interrupt me. I'm just bringing clarity to what was said.

We did not resume debate. We went immediately in camera to work on committee business with an intent to decide what we would study next. I believe it is very frustrating for the people who have been following this study on the Afghan monument and who want clarity to come forward on what truly happened. In the meantime, we are dilly-dallying because we did not in good faith do what was agreed to around this table.

I want to bring clarity to what was said here. I agree that due diligence was done but not in the right direction, and that is discouraging when this committee is especially responsible for veterans' care and we see all the work we did on the women's study. This does not reinforce the confidence that we are truly committed to doing the studies that are important to them.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

I now give the floor to Mr. Desilets on a point of order.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Chair, I ask that the next 15 minutes be devoted to committee business. I want to introduce a motion, a different one than the one distributed last week.

In connection with your express request, I'd like us to discuss finding a solution to put an end to the constant filibustering and moving our business forward intelligently. I'd like to move a motion that I hope would end the filibustering and allow us to move forward just a little bit. It would be an honourable solution in connection with—

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Okay.

Mr. Desilets, thank you for your intervention.

First of all, I want to apologize to the witnesses, who haven't yet had the opportunity to make their opening remarks. There are a couple of procedural things that we need to deal with.

I'll now come back to you, Mr. Desilets. In order to move to committee business, I need unanimous consent. I must also tell you that you can always move a notice of motion, but that there would be no debate.

Do I have the unanimous consent of the committee members to move to committee business and to hear Mr. Desilets' motion?

[Some hon. members]

No.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

It doesn't look like it.

Mr. Desilets, would you like to move a notice of motion and briefly read your motion?

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

On a point of order, Chair, I beg your pardon, but I don't believe we can move a motion on a point of order.

We have witnesses in front of us. I'd like us to get to the witnesses, please. None of this has been a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

He has to wait his turn on the list.

Ms. Meunier and Mr. Tessier, we're pleased to welcome you. You have five minutes to deliver your opening remarks.

[Amy Meunier, Assistant Deputy Minister, Commemoration and Public Affairs Branch, Department of Veterans Affairs]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee, for letting us be here today.

As the assistant deputy minister of commemoration and public affairs at Veterans Affairs, I'm acutely aware of the important role our department plays in remembering and recognizing the enormous sacrifices made by those who have served in uniform.

These sacrifices are recognized in two ways: through commemoration and through benefits and services. Veterans Affairs Canada is very grateful to all veterans and Canadian Armed Forces members for their dedicated service, including those who served in the Persian Gulf.

We appreciate the ongoing and active dialogue between veterans organizations, the minister's advisory groups, veterans, families, stakeholders and parliamentarians. This dialogue provides important perspectives on how best to recognize Persian Gulf veterans and other modern-day veterans.

Members of the Persian Gulf Veterans of Canada have asked that their service in the Persian Gulf be defined as war service instead of special duty service. In terms of benefits and services, the authority to designate special duty service originates from the Veterans Well-being Act, which came into force in April 2006. The legislation prescribes that the Minister of National Defence may designate special duty areas and operations. There is no specific legislation that provides the authority for VAC to designate a period of service as wartime service.

The practice of categorizing military service is an internal CAF-DND process done in the interest of providing CAF members and veterans with the benefits to which they are entitled from National Defence and Veterans Affairs Canada. This categorization helps to determine the kind of support or compensation they should receive. Modern veterans benefit from a much wider framework of services and supports, such as financial benefits, rehabilitation, case management services, mental health programs and many others. These programs were not available before April 2006. The special duty service classification does not signal any lesser respect for the service of members and veterans, nor is it indicative of a lesser degree of risk on the part of those deployed.

Going all the way back to the South African War at the turn of the 20th century, we have a lot to be proud of and a lot to remember, but not all veterans identify with the stories of military accomplishments that happened well before they were born. While we will always commemorate traditional milestones from the First and Second World Wars and Korea, we're also focusing more on recognizing Canada's modern-day veterans and operations, such as those in the Gulf and elsewhere in the Middle East in 1990 and 1991. I want to highlight that this was the first conflict in which Canadian women in service were set to engage in active combat roles.

In fact, through our CAF around the world programming framework, we're making deliberate efforts to make sure that veterans know how appreciative we are of their service, courage and sacrifice at home, around the world and across generations.

We will continue to ask current veterans to share with us the type of commemorative and recognition activities they are most interested in. They should be able to see themselves in everything we do to honour them.

We also want Canadians to value and recognize the service and sacrifice of those who have served.

This year, for example, our CAF around the world framework places special emphasis on recognizing Canadian military and peace support efforts in Africa. Earlier this year, we recognized the 10th anniversary of the end of Canada's mission in Afghanistan and 60 years since Canadians joined the United Nations peacekeeping forces in Cyprus. Later this month, we'll be recognizing the 60th anniversary of the end of the UN operations in the Congo, which included 300 Canadians.

We're also making sure to remember and recognize those who served in domestic operations. For example, in recent years, we've recognized the Canadian mission to support the Red River floods, the 25th anniversary of the crash of Swissair flight 111, the ice storm and many others.

The veterans who supported these and other modern-day operations are most deserving of being recognized for their service. It is a profound responsibility we have, and at Veterans Affairs Canada, we are well aware of it and take great pride in what we do.

We will continue to do what we can to ensure that all our veterans are represented and recognized for their service to Canada.

Thank you.