Human Resources committee  As I said in my opening remarks, I am not a statistical expert. I'm not the person to ask that question to. I am relying on the expertise of those who have already spoken on this issue, including the chief statistician, who resigned over this issue precisely because of this tension--

Human Resources committee  I'm not going to answer that question in the way you would like me to, only because I think that's a question that needs to be posed to the committee or whoever it is that screens this and in a proper setting to evaluate--

Human Resources committee  Again, I think there has been a process in place. It seems to have been working. For some reason the government made the decision that it's not working and has made, unfortunately, an issue when there wasn't an issue.

Human Resources committee  I do think they're very important questions. I think every question on both the short-form census and the long-form census can be objectively assessed for the value the data will bring to society. It should go through that scrutiny. If a question doesn't meet the test of value, then it shouldn't be included.

Human Resources committee  But the long-form census results in the bulk of data being collected. So if all of those questions are moved to a voluntary basis, you're essentially putting at risk the credibility or the reliability of data for the bulk of the information--

Human Resources committee  That's correct.

Human Resources committee  Yes.

Human Resources committee  The only specific example I can give you is that PALS survey that someone mentioned on disability. In fact, we're part of a research project led by university researchers who rely on the PALS survey for their information. I know there have been other surveys that have been dropped.

Human Resources committee  If that's the level of the fine, I think that is disproportionate.

Human Resources committee  I don't really want to hazard an opinion on that. I'd have to give that some more thought. In Australia, I understand if you fail to vote, there's a fine of something like $20, which seems to be a little bit on the low side, but there's obviously a medium there that has to be derived in terms of an appropriate penalty.

Human Resources committee  No, I don't agree with you. It seems, from what the experts were saying, that the mandatory nature of the census is what drives higher rates of compliance and better confidence in the resulting data. If you go with a voluntary basis, and I think the internal StatsCan survey bears this out, you're going to see less participation from some groups who are most vulnerable in our society, and that's a great concern.

Human Resources committee  The same logic must also apply to the short-form census. If a private citizen or a private interest comes to my door and asks if I'm married and how many people live in the house, that is none of their business. But if the federal government comes to my door and asks that question, I understand there's an obligation and I can understand the context.

Human Resources committee  No. As I said, we don't support the threat of jail time for a census. It seems very much disproportionate to the weight of the so-called offence. But as I said, I think the notion of a citizen's obligation to support the data upon which a lot of decision-making rests, within the public and the private sphere, is totally reasonable.

Human Resources committee  Well, you're giving some examples of types of questions where obviously there could be room for debate on whether or not we think those are suitable--

Human Resources committee  What's really behind this is up to the government, I think, to answer. It seems like their response rests on the privacy issue and their concerns about privacy. But to me, it's a bogus argument. Statistics Canada has rigorous protection of the private nature of this information, and I think, as I said in my remarks, we have to change the frame on this and help Canadians understand how the data relate to them and benefit programs and services they may participate in.