Citizenship and Immigration committee  That's correct, absolutely. We're talking about two very different situations in our brief. One is people who are asking for refugee status and are excluded under what we feel are overly broad exclusion provisions. We feel that they should have access to humanitarian considerations.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  Thank you very much. I think we are going a little far in saying that refugee claimants like that could be deported even when they are in danger of being tortured. Actually, under the Convention against Torture and other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, Canada would be required not to deport them.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  It is very clear if you look at the figures. In 1998, there were two cases and now there are between 80 and 100 each year. Clearly it is expanding. I really recommend that you read a study by two professors at the University of British Columbia, Catherine Dauvergne and Asha Kaushal.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  I'd like to go back to your exact question, which was about the criminal justice system. It's my understanding, from reading court of appeal jurisprudence from different provinces including Alberta and Quebec, that the courts are not seeing it that way, in terms of being able to present immigration arguments at the sentencing stage.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  That's not my understanding. I'll leave it to the criminal law experts. I would say that before the government goes ahead with a provision that would remove humanitarian discretion, you should make absolutely sure that this argument can be made in criminal courts across Canada.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  Okay. Our recommendations are that clauses 9 and 10 of Bill C-43 should be amended to ensure that persons excluded from refugee protection are nonetheless permitted to file H and C applications and have them fully considered. Clause 18 of Bill C-43 should be amended to eliminate any restrictions on the factors the minister may consider in examining requests for ministerial relief.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  I absolutely agree. I think all our member organizations agree that it is not too much to expect foreign nationals to obey the law, just like Canadian citizens. We absolutely agree that where there's an action there should be a reaction. The question is one of proportionality, one of degree.

Citizenship and Immigration committee  Thanks, again, for your invitation. We are very happy to be here. We're going to focus on one area of particular concern under Bill C-43: the denial of access to humanitarian and compassionate, or H and C, considerations to persons excluded from refugee protection and the denial of H and C considerations to persons found inadmissible on security grounds who apply for ministerial relief from such inadmissibility.