Information & Ethics committee  I'm not sure what you're getting at. That's what we have the conflict of interest screens for, if there's any concern. It's a question of whether the charity is looking for money from the government, or looking for some kind of support. In that situation, if one has a position that makes the decisions on that, there have to be some conflict rules.

Information & Ethics committee  I think that's a political decision; I don't think it's a moral decision. I think normally these cases are, first of all, not decided until they're decided, and it's difficult when they're under investigation. They haven't been shown to have contravened the act at this time. There are some cases that are more open and shut than others and there are some areas that are a little bit abstruse, I think.

Information & Ethics committee  Well, I think the public will decide that. Actually, sorry, you're talking about a minister and not an MP. Again, it's for the party, or for the Prime Minister, I guess, to determine that. It's always a thing that has to be considered. A decision has to be made, but I don't think it's an obvious decision.

Information & Ethics committee  I think it's a good regime. I mentioned in my opening remarks I was astounded while I was in that office at the number of different countries—China, Russia, Ukraine, some African countries, England, Australia, New Zealand—that made appointments to send delegations to study our regime.

Information & Ethics committee  Yes, but you're mixing up two provisions. Section 11 has “reasonably seen to have been given” and is specific to section 11, so if we're trying to interpret section 6 or 9, or whatever we're trying to interpret, that doesn't use that expression.

Information & Ethics committee  Actually, those are subsections of section 2. Well, I don't know. That's a matter of fact, and that's not for me to decide.

Information & Ethics committee  I think there are different levels of badness in some of the contraventions that are found. Sometimes it's just not being careful enough; other times it could be quite a serious thing. The other thing to note is that of course you're thinking more in terms of members of Parliament who are also reporting public office holders.

Information & Ethics committee  As I have said before, I'm not a fan of having penalties or punishments meted out by the Ethics Commissioner. I believe that belongs in the criminal courts. But I think the repercussions of continuous contraventions of the act will be felt sooner or later. That's why I pointed to section 19.

Information & Ethics committee  That's where you look at the definition of conflict of interest. The conflict of interest definition, effectively, is section 4, but I always call it the definition. It says: an opportunity to further his or her private interests, those of his or her relatives or friends, or to improperly further another The relatives or friends are already included in the definition of conflict of interest.

Information & Ethics committee  No. You have to look at a substantive provision in the act. Section 4 is not a substantive provision, it's a definitional provision. Unfortunately.... I've always advocated—in fact, that's one of my 75 recommendations—it should go in the definition section, because it's confusing to people.

Information & Ethics committee  Yes, but you have to look at section 11, which is the gift section, assuming that this act applied to these people. When you look at section 11, that's the one you would interpret. That's the one section that doesn't use conflict of interest as the base, interestingly enough. Anyway, we're getting into semantics.

Information & Ethics committee  Well, in his role, perhaps, he has a symbolic...role, or whatever the expression would be, but the fact of the matter is that the act applies equally to everybody, from the Prime Minister to the lowest official who's covered by the act. The rules are the same for all.

Information & Ethics committee  Yes, if there's time. This is the problem here. I'd point out section 19 of the act. Section 19 says, “Compliance with this Act is a condition of a person's appointment or employment as a public office holder.” That should have a bearing on what happens to the person who may have been found to have contravened the act.

Information & Ethics committee  The public discourse around it, did you say?

Information & Ethics committee  Oh, partisan.