Public Accounts committee  To be very clear, I understand and appreciate the question. It's not one that I can answer in detail because I was not there. The information I can provide you with...and you understand that point and you understand the reason that I say that very clearly. You also understand and appreciate that the issues here are deeply fundamental, and you also understand and appreciate, because we are having this dialogue, that we welcome this dialogue and we understand from a public service perspective....

Public Accounts committee  I do believe that is a fundamental governance issue, and when we look at this in retrospect, as the report does, we need to understand that this governance is critical for these aspects. There have been huge strides in governance, but they are only as good as the values, the intention, the commitment to implement and live with those values.

Public Accounts committee  I appreciate the question. You'll understand that I was not there at the time, so if you don't mind, I'm just going to read from the notes that I have.

Public Accounts committee  On January 29, 2016—

Public Accounts committee  Yes.

Public Accounts committee  I'm coming back to that. Allow me the time.

Public Accounts committee  I'm trying to be helpful—

Public Accounts committee  —and then I need to be clear.

Public Accounts committee  I just need to be very clear about why—

Public Accounts committee  I understand that point.

Public Accounts committee  I understand the point fundamentally, and the reason that I referred to that is that I'm about to give you information. The other information I give you is information of which I have direct knowledge because I am there. I'm just trying to explain to you that I'm explaining something that I know indirectly rather than directly.

Public Accounts committee  I cannot imagine. So again—

Public Accounts committee  No. Just one moment, please.

Public Accounts committee  Let me be very clear. You will never get an absolute assurance from me, because life is messy. There are enormous challenges. I say that not, frankly, to duck accountability but to indicate to you that we will do everything we can to mitigate risk. However, risk is a reality. The challenge here is how we prevent small problems from becoming enormous, incomprehensible problems.

Public Accounts committee  I appreciate the question around accountability. It's important and fundamental, and I'll answer it on a going-forward basis, if I may. I think there may well be opportunities to improve the accountability regime of the Government of Canada on a going-forward basis. One of them is to look at the number of layers of executives and whether or not that number of layers facilitates the effective flow of information.