Government Operations committee  I'd be out on a limb, but I think it would only take you partway, because I think some of it is structural as well. I think some of it potentially has to do even with the relationship with tenants who use PW services. The sophistication of that tenant, for example, can have an impact on how well PW can manage costs.

Government Operations committee  It depends on whether you include the PW reference levels. If you look at the PW reference levels you're into billions. But PW does much more than just accommodations, so you would want to parse out that portion of the department's reference levels that are devoted to real property.

Government Operations committee  In the series that you asked, sir, the 20% difference is, according to Public Works, associated with the fact that they work through their property program with certain rigidities that aren't felt in the private sector. They must follow Treasury Board policy; they must adhere to requirements like ATIP.

Government Operations committee  PSHRMAC.

Government Operations committee  I don't know that there's an active proposal of that type on the table.

Government Operations committee  The Department of National Defence would have all the same responsibilities as a typical custodian or tenant to the degree that they're in a building that they are renting via Public Works. What is different about them, though, is that much of what they hold is special purpose space, i.e., not office space.

Government Operations committee  What the secretariat keeps an eye on is the rust-out costs that are brought to our attention. The rust-out costs would typically be described to us in terms of the portfolio writ large, but from time to time we do become very aware of particular cases of rust-out, especially where they go to health and safety issues.

Government Operations committee  Those would be embassies. They could be residences, both official residences and consular. At most of the embassies they have office accommodation, but as well there is sometimes special purpose space for receptions, etc.

Government Operations committee  Foreign Affairs would oversee it from a management point of view. But the departments that are located abroad, such as CIC, for example, would pay Foreign Affairs for both the floor space and, I believe, a portion of the overhead that's associated with being accommodated with the embassy.

Government Operations committee  Foreign Affairs would bring to Treasury Board any requirements to close an existing site where we are represented abroad and to open one. Both of those issues would ultimately find their way to Treasury Board. Before that, they would find themselves at a policy committee, whether or not it's a discussion from a representation point of view.

Government Operations committee  If I may, I'll address first the question of net worth. As you might imagine, net worth is a bit of a moving target. It fluctuates day to day with market rates, interest rates, and circumstances on the ground. We do have, however, in the public accounts an indication of the book value of those 46,000 to 47,000 properties, and that number comes to $26 billion.

Government Operations committee  I really can't tell you whether that's a proxy we could apply more generally.

Government Operations committee  I would suggest that there is a constant ebb and flow around the acquisition of property and the divestiture thereof. The degree to which we buy as opposed to leasing depends on a number of factors. I have taken certain cases to Treasury Board recently where the Minister of Public Works was entering into new leases.

Government Operations committee  Thank you, Madam Chair. My name is Mary Chaput. I'm the assistant secretary for a section of Treasury Board Secretariat called government operations. With me today are Ms. Shirley Jen, Senior Director of the Real Property and Material Policy Division, and Ms. Ruth Brady, a senior analyst from the same division.

Information & Ethics committee  With your agreement, Mr. Chair, we'll undertake to do some research on this and include what we can in getting back to the committee.