Public Accounts committee  When I look back, Mr. Chairman, at the evolution of reporting within the federal government, I think there have been some good strides, some good progress made. I saw some progress when I was there, although we're still some distance from reaching a goal, but I did see some progress over the 1990s on that front.

Public Accounts committee  The term “active monitoring” sounds nice but it could sometimes be dangerous.

Public Accounts committee  In my opinion, if we want to achieve a monitoring not only active but also efficient, certain mechanisms would have to be put in place and some funding available. It is obvious, in my opinion, that this will involve some effort because we cannot reach that goal without devoting the necessary energy and resources.

Public Accounts committee  These are words I borrowed from Treasury Board. These words were used by Treasury Board itself. As I was saying, in order to expect to do a true active monitoring, we must do what is necessary to carry it out. I think it would require more than what has been done up to now. We must also have available the necessary professional and intellectual resources.

Public Accounts committee  In that case, I will continue.

Public Accounts committee  We want the secretary of the Treasury Board to have available information systems which would allow him to know whether the departments are properly implementing the policies that it approved. It must have systems which indicate whether the departments are respecting their objectives and properly managing the resources granted to them.

Public Accounts committee  The reports provided by departments on their performance are good, but they are not good enough. Furthermore, they are not produced fast enough to fit in with the role of the secretary of Treasury Board I am attempting to describe. This is a management role. The secretary would have to be informed about the way the department or the entity business have evolved every three months, and not six months after the end of the year.

Public Accounts committee  Mr. Chairman, that does seem to me inconsistent. In my opinion, the Treasury Board Secretary can exercise his leadership with regard to financial management and policies of financial management while having a line boss if I can call it that way. This is quite normal; it happens in all organizations.

Public Accounts committee  This should be able to be done.

Public Accounts committee  Thank you.

Public Accounts committee  I think it would be rather difficult to implement a system such as the one you referred to. I visited New Zealand and I became familiar with was is being done there. There is in that country a whole management structure, based on results, which links the results to the salary. In order to do that, you need a foundation.

Public Accounts committee  Mr. Chairman, the dilemma raised by Mr. Proulx is real but this is however a situation with which a good number of organizations of some size are faced with. Private sector large companies, multinationals or even large Canadian companies have to deal with it. They have to determine what is the role played by the head office, the management of each of the branches or entities and asked themselves to what extent they should transfer their responsibilities.

Public Accounts committee  There's no yes or no. The issue of rapid turnover does not help. It makes accountability virtually impossible, if you're talking about that kind of personal accountability for performance. It always remains possible to have an organizational accountability, but if you want to hold a particular person responsible for certain results, with that kind of rapid turnover it becomes very difficult or impossible.

Public Accounts committee  I think making the DMs accounting officers, with what that means and what that entails--being specifically responsible for a number of comptrollership-type issues--would really help. I think it would focus the deputy ministers on some of these aspects of management that get put on the back burner.

Public Accounts committee  Well, I assume that they do, but I'm not totally convinced they necessarily have all the tools, because I don't think some of the tools would normally come through an agency like the Treasury Board Secretariat. If we're talking about the role of the Treasury Board Secretariat here today, I think we have to ask ourselves if they should play that role, if they are playing that role, and how they should play that role, if we want them to play it.