Justice committee  I don't think I actually have any response to that. Sorry I can't be more helpful.

Justice committee  Yes.

Justice committee  The added piece here is that as you expand the powers of private security forces, you expand the potential for the abuse of power. So the concern about the potential lack of regulation of this industry is a concern that is present to a greater degree with the amendments being proposed than it is with the existing legislation.

Justice committee  Or I'll just add—

Justice committee  The only thing I would add is that it's also important in this context to think about the provincial regulatory regimes. Most of the provincial acts on trespass to property are conditioned and have geographical limitations. One of the reasons why David Chen's arrest wasn't authorized under the Trespass to Property Act was that he was off the property.

Justice committee  The concern really is what Professor Rigakos has just pointed out, which is how we deal not with the David Chen situations but with the empowerment of an industry that is driven by a profit motive and is likely to be inclined to be aggressive, at least until the contours of these powers are well established.

Justice committee  The courts are the guardians of it if the case actually gets to court. This again is where we come back to the difficulties, certainly in the civil litigation context. Civil litigation is really out of the question for the vast majority of Canadians. It's not affordable; it's not an option.

Justice committee  I should say that as far as I'm concerned, the Chen case is maybe a more extreme circumstance than one would expect to deal with in the context of a typical, true citizen's arrest, in that we were dealing with a situation where the arrestee was hog-tied and put in a van. We're dealing with a fairly robust exercise of this power.

Justice committee  I'm not sure I have much to add to what my two colleagues have said, but I would like to say something about some of the realities of rural policing. I think this is a huge issue for citizens who live in rural areas and who have a reasonable desire to be safe. My concern is that in expanding the powers of citizen's arrest and relying on those powers so that individuals can protect themselves, in some ways we're getting away, maybe, from the real issue, which is whether we should have more police officers.

Justice committee  I would just add that the Supreme Court hasn't ruled on this issue, but what complicates the question here is that in a case called Buhay, the court seemed to insist that for charter purposes it was going to treat private security guards as private, except in a very limited number of circumstances.

Justice committee  Thank you very much. Yes, I think the literature suggests that when we're dealing with police officers, marginalized groups such as visible minorities and individuals who find themselves in a low socio-economic category tend to be over-policed. That's the way we refer to it. I think the same concerns might well exist when we're talking about private security forces.

Justice committee  I'll only speak for a moment and then pass it on, maybe to Professor Rigakos here. Assuming that it's useful for Parliament to provide clarity on the extent of the scope of the powers of a citizen's arrest--which I would quite agree with you is important--if you're going to provide this power to a private citizen, it's important to be as clear as possible.

Justice committee  I don't see any reason why I wouldn't.

Justice committee  Sure.

Justice committee  I think it's laudable that Parliament has decided to address what is at present a fairly technical series of provisions dealing specifically with self-defence.