Subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Finance on Bill C-38 committee  Protection of biodiversity is an important part of assuring overall sustainability of ecosystems. Of course, it's tremendously important. It really is at risk of being lost with the changes to the bill, just because there is going to be much less federal presence in the environmental assessment process.

Subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Finance on Bill C-38 committee  I share your concern about the changes to the Fisheries Act. It remains to be seen how these terms “serious harm” and “permanent harm” will be defined by the courts. That will take some time. Again, we're going to be faced with a fair amount of uncertainty as we go through that process.

Subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Finance on Bill C-38 committee  I have a somewhat different view from others. I actually am not as troubled by these proposed changes. The National Energy Board is a quasi-judicial body, and it does its work in a way that's fair to folks who come before it, I think. I don't like a lot of the decisions from the National Energy Board, but it is an independent body and it has a pretty good process.

Subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Finance on Bill C-38 committee  It's completely consistent with the remarks and with my brief that I tabled with the House environment committee in the fall. My point was that having mandatory legal requirements to conduct screenings of all of these various small projects may not be necessary. But if we take away those legal requirements, we need something else to ensure that those projects are promoting sustainability, as my colleague, Mr.

Subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Finance on Bill C-38 committee  There are two things. One is that the legislation is very clear that the 99% of projects that are currently screened under CEAA will be not be happening. We know there will be a huge diminution of the number of projects assessed overall. So that I think is clear. What isn't clear, and what I've been saying, is that we don't know what's going to be on the designated project list regulation.

Subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Finance on Bill C-38 committee  Well, we're not going to get it through CEAA 2012. I mean, we know that in this bill there are a number of very profound changes from the previous bill—for example, just in the definition of what an environmental effect is. For projects such as a mine.... Let's take a base metal mine in British Columbia that's subject mainly to provincial regulation and not so much to federal regulations, other than the Fisheries Act and some other federal provisions.

Subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Finance on Bill C-38 committee  Yes. That's more or less right. I think it's around $2 now, and it's been that way for some time.

Subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Finance on Bill C-38 committee  That's correct.

Subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Finance on Bill C-38 committee  Could I respond? I thought there was supposed to be a question.

Subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Finance on Bill C-38 committee  I thought she was asking me a question.

Subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Finance on Bill C-38 committee  I don't believe the term “equivalency” is actually used in the new act. In the substitution section I think it says the minister must form an opinion that the provincial process would be “an appropriate substitute”. In my view, that provides significant discretion on the part of the minister to make that determination.

Subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Finance on Bill C-38 committee  Small projects will not be covered under the new act. Under current legislation a lot of screening is done, mainly of small projects, but not all. There are some large projects that are subject to screening as well, but there's really no provision for assessment of small projects, unless one of two things happens.

Subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Finance on Bill C-38 committee  I fully expect that oil sands projects will not be included in the designated project list regulation. We'll see. I think the government will argue that Alberta has a perfectly good regulatory body, the Energy Resources Conservation Board, so let it do its work. We don't really need to have the federal government involved.

Subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Finance on Bill C-38 committee  Yes.

Subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Finance on Bill C-38 committee  Sure. Imperial Oil and the other partners in the Mackenzie gas project invested hundreds of millions of dollars up front in the environmental assessment process, the regulatory process, and doing their field work for constructing the pipeline. It's very expensive stuff. Exxon Mobil was never that enthusiastic about the project, and even Imperial Oil never said they would build that pipeline.