National Defence committee  I remember it well.

National Defence committee  I have no idea. Mr. Lick came in as an interim ombudsman, I think, for six or eight months, and then a competition was opened, to which he applied. I have no idea how long it took for me. From the time I applied to the time I got through, it was almost six or eight weeks. There was psychological testing.

National Defence committee  I think we have a perfect opportunity, to follow on Ms. Mathyssen's question. The minister now has an opportunity to pick the next ombudsperson coming into the organization. If we're going to just pick someone off a list or find someone we think is qualified and put them in there....

National Defence committee  We looked at just about every aspect of the military: reserves, Canadian Rangers, junior rangers, cadets, transition, mental health and support for families. It was such a broad base. We looked at just about every aspect that we thought would get at members' well-being. We spent a lot of time with families and a lot of time with reservists because they had not received the attention.

National Defence committee  However, I think it's absolutely critical that there be a competition. I hear the scuttlebutt on the road. I'm sure it's around this table and people know about various levels of it. There's a thought process about how an ombudsman is going to be appointed. I shudder to think what that's going to do to this office.

National Defence committee  As to the construct of how it would work, the ombudsman is still going to report through the minister. The work that's done through the CAF would have to come through that chain. If there is no response, where does it go from there? The corrections ombudsman right now reports through the minister.

National Defence committee  Rest assured that I'm not concerned about applying for the position.

National Defence committee  Absolutely, and it was a sad state of affairs when I had to challenge the minister publicly to get information on the transition process of the Canadian Armed Forces. Here we go again. It's not like this just happened yesterday. This is pattern behaviour, and if we allow it to continue, we'll be continuing this conversation.

National Defence committee  It took me an hour. If we don't go after the people who are in these positions and challenge them to do the right thing, teach them how to do the right thing and reward them for doing the right thing.... Everyone at DND in the executive cadre is getting a bonus this year. I guarantee you that.

National Defence committee  Look, not to repeat myself, but let me repeat myself. We're talking about people who have been put in positions of authority. There are guidelines on what they're supposed to do. They're well written. When I first joined the public service after a long stint in the private sector—I should have stayed there—what I was given was a thick binder.

National Defence committee  I think we've talked around it a bit here today. It has to be about developing a system where we reward proper behaviour and punish inappropriate behaviour. I talked about my personal case. There were eight or 10 people involved and every one of them was promoted. What do you think their underlings now see as the proper way to move ahead in the organization?

National Defence committee  Can I just add to that?

National Defence committee  You asked how Hollywood and athletics have changed. They have changed because the public spotlight got shone on them. They didn't change because we allowed an internal unit inside either one of those entities to report upon itself. That's not how they changed. They changed because the public became outraged about the behaviour.

National Defence committee  Thank you for that.

National Defence committee  Absolutely.