Afghanistan committee  Yes, that's right. It's too bad that we didn't sign agreements with Pakistan on a range of issues during the 14 years we were in Afghanistan. The problem is that our development strategy didn't make sense from the get‑go. Now the challenge is evacuating people and reviving development efforts in Afghanistan.

Afghanistan committee  Are you asking about the benefits of being on the ground, in Pakistan?

Afghanistan committee  The barriers flagged by the high commissioners include those created by our allies. For example, initially, Canada had a program through which Pakistani officers would train with Canadian armed forces, just as they did with the French and British armed forces. That program was discontinued for more than 10 years, however, because of the Americans.

Afghanistan committee  Yes, always and on a number of levels, ranging from international refugees and security to intelligence and counterterrorism. All of it depends on Pakistan.

Afghanistan committee  That's right, and Pakistani resistance is not the issue. I can give you examples of Pakistan's presence in Canada. The family of Pakistan's third-highest ranking commissioner lives in Oakville, Ontario. Pakistan's deputy chief of army staff, a former agriculture minister, lived in Alberta for a year.

Afghanistan committee  I have no specific information on the refugees; my background is obviously looking at the larger picture. I think Pakistan would be very amenable to helping Canada if Canada were to engage Pakistan, obviously with a price tag, for development. Pakistan's influence in Afghanistan is frequently exaggerated, but if it's tied to aid, Canada's had a very good experience at all levels of providing aid in Pakistan, and Pakistan is very likely to provide what Canada needs with the Taliban.

Afghanistan committee  Pakistan, as I mentioned in my comments, is an extremely narrow objective. The foreign aid community has given Afghanistan consistent assistance in avoiding addressing the main issue, which is recognition of the frontier. If anyone were to deliver that to Pakistan simply by opening a dialogue with Afghans, who have resisted this one policy request from Pakistan for a very long time, then Pakistan is very likely to normalize its relationship with Afghanistan and be a very co-operative conduit.

Afghanistan committee  I don't mean to challenge the current policy of evacuating Afghans who co-operated with the Canadian Forces. My point, which I've echoed for 20 years, is that the policies before that disaster happened consistently avoided Pakistan. For those of us working in Pakistan, it looked like it was policy-driven.

Afghanistan committee  Thank you. In 1973, Mohammad Daoud overthrew the King of Afghanistan, declared support for Pakistan's separatists and triggered a series of internal coups d'état. The Pakistani Prime Minister, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, responded by reaching out to Afghan decision-makers, including the Muslim Youth organization at Kabul University, giving them refuge, money and weapons training.

Afghanistan committee  Thank you. I was saying that the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, delimited by the McMahon Line, is still not recognized by Kabul. In 1948, Afghanistan's defence minister, Mohammad Daoud, threw his support behind the separatists of the North-West Frontier Province and Baluchistan, which led to a border dispute with Pakistan, lasting until 1963.

Afghanistan committee  I'd like to thank Mr. Brunelle‑Duceppe and the other members of the committee for inviting me today to discuss the issue of assistance to Afghan refugees. I have taught at Concordia University, in Montreal, since 1998. I have never been to Afghanistan, but I carried out research in Pakistan and on Pakistan for 10 years, from 1999 to 2011.