Government Operations committee  I haven't heard a lot. I've heard about a couple of big cases. I think it's obvious that anybody who has witnessed wrongdoing on the part of any government entity or any entity whatsoever should be protected. Many countries protect all of their citizens. Doing so is part of their legislation.

Government Operations committee  I think anything that smacks of wrongness is abuse of authority. People know instinctively when authority is being abused. Bullying and harassment are abuses of authority. Part of abusing authority is abusing your power and not exercising your power justly and fairly. A lot of it probably could be from not having the skills to do so.

Government Operations committee  Thank you for the question. We're talking about an internal environment. There are three things that impact an internal environment. One is structure. One is leadership. The other is culture. With structure, strict vertical hierarchies in particular are very susceptible to developing dysfunctional cultures, mainly because of problems with communication.

Government Operations committee  I'm sorry.

Government Operations committee  I would like to underline what Mr. Sabourin has said. Our organization was set up to advance education on the whistle-blowing phenomenon through research and sharing that information publicly. We did not announce in any way that we provided services to whistle-blowers, but we end up providing support for whistle-blowers because they call us because there's nowhere else for them to go.

Government Operations committee  All I can say is that we have the eight best practices here. In order to give whistle-blowers a reliable chance to prevail, we absolutely need the burden of proof.... The reverse-onus requirement should be there. A manager must prove the action taken was not a reprisal rather than the employee proving that it was.

Government Operations committee  I don't know—

Government Operations committee  —that there's any country that's best. The United States is known as pretty much the inventor of whistle-blowing. They've had whistle-blowing since their first act in the 1700s, when contractors were cheating the government. There was a war going on or something. I don't remember.

Government Operations committee  Okay.

Government Operations committee  I have just a few more points. Thank you very much.

Government Operations committee  Yes, it's very short. In terms of political and administrative cultures, my suggestion is that what is needed is to develop open, listening and reflective cultures to replace defensive, controlling ones, if public trust is to be maintained. We need to shift from command and control public administration to listening and learning approaches.

Government Operations committee  No. I would just like to have the opportunity at some stage to talk about the proposed solutions for the problems that I itemized.

Government Operations committee  All right. The first one was—

Government Operations committee  No.

Government Operations committee  Just briefly, in terms of flawed legislation, I would like to suggest that everybody here knows what effective legislation looks like. You have access to international experts. You have the work of the 2017 committee. It just remains for you to do it and to do what needs to be done.