National Defence committee  There are a lot of activities in outer space that are ambiguous. We don't have tacit agreements on some of the more important ones that are happening, such as satellites that get up close and inspect, image or creep up. We're not really sure what other capabilities they have. Do they have eavesdropping capabilities?

National Defence committee  I'll begin with the space council. I'm still waiting to see how it functions and what it does. I wasn't privy to the earlier conversations. My understanding is that a lot of it is focused on having one place to have a conversation in Canada, because space cuts across so many different ministerial responsibilities and departments.

National Defence committee  I disagree that outer space is a wild west. I think it's one of those throwaway lines that people use to indicate that we have a lot of work to do on governance. We do have treaties and rules in place, and we have core principles, and I think those are fundamental to build on. How to build the norms of responsible behaviour is challenging.

National Defence committee  I agree that it tends to lead to a bigger and bigger mess down the line, because states respond in turn and you have an escalation of threat. Deterrence is hard in space. NATO is currently undergoing, I believe under Canadian leadership, a study of defence in outer space. My input on that process is that it's not working very well, precisely because of a lot of the factors that Dr.

National Defence committee  They are, and they have an impact on space systems and earth. Investments in these kinds of resilient physical capabilities can also aid with protection against the natural threats we face.

National Defence committee  Yes, and we are doing a good job on a lot of this. I actually don't have a lot of qualms about Canada in space. I know there's probably a desire for more funding, for more capability and for doing what we've committed to do, but I think Canada has been doing quite well with what we have and with our priorities.

National Defence committee  I think having a single provider be so essential to a military or national capability is not an example of having redundant and resilient systems. Canada is addressing this in part. We have good manufacturing and have our own dedicated communications and earth observation systems.

National Defence committee  Russia is not willing to share anything, really. Neither Russia nor China provides very much public access to any information it holds. What are their intentions? The reason I emphasized avoiding heavily militarized or provocative responses is that from my perspective, Russia and China are both trying hard to depict the west as weaponizing outer space, and I see some of the responses that are pursued as playing into that hand.

National Defence committee  Absolutely, and I'm leading by example. I want to point out that Canada was the first country to join the U.S.-led moratorium on destructive tests of anti-satellite weapons in space, so I think we're doing a good job on this. I think dissuasion is a wonderful word. It's slightly different from deterrence.

National Defence committee  That's a wonderful question. Thank you, Mr. Fillmore. I work extensively with other NGOs and with the Canadian Department of National Defence, where I've done research on how we can contribute to the development of norms of responsible behaviour, as well as future arms-control mechanisms and diplomatic initiatives, which is a whole-of-government effort.

National Defence committee  I have a colleague at Project Ploughshares, Branka Marijan, who does excellent work on AI. I've been involved through the Centre for International Governance Innovation on examining the space-cyber nexus, and I've been the editor of a series of essays. I think it is really important to understand that outer space is intermingled with all kinds of emerging technology.

National Defence committee  Thank you so much for having me here today to speak about the critical issue of space defence from a Canadian perspective. As you have already heard from Brigadier-General Adamson, the Canadian military and indeed all Canadians across the country are deeply dependent on the countless capabilities that outer space provides.