Government Operations Committee on May 29th, 2024

[Francis Trudel]

It's under the current rules.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks very much.

Mr. Genuis, please go ahead, sir.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you.

Minister, you oversee government spending and related rules.

Can you assure this committee that you've never used government resources as part of a leadership campaign?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I most definitely can confirm that I have never done that and would never do that. I actually am surprised that you would ask the question. I have never done that.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Minister. I think people understand that it's an important question.

Have any directives been issued to ensure that other ministers are following the rules as well?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Ministers and public servants are expected to follow all rules, period.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Have no directives been issued specifically on that?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

It is important for everyone to follow the policies of the Government of Canada, as well as the conflict of interest policies that all MPs are required to follow.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Minister. I think it's clearly on the record what was asked and what was answered.

We're here reviewing indigenous contracting as well. Documents have been received that reveal that a small number of nominally indigenous firms were able to act as brokers between the federal government and other potentially non-indigenous companies by simply getting contracts and subcontracting. This allows the contracts to fit into an indigenous contracting quota, even though indigenous people do not actually benefit because the subcontractors may be all or mostly non-indigenous.

These companies are essentially using the Dalian or GC Strategies model.

I want to ask you, when a company gets a contract under an indigenous set-aside, is there an expectation or a requirement that some percentage of subcontracts also go to indigenous firms?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Indigenous Services Canada manages the list of indigenous businesses that are qualified indigenous contracting companies. PSPC manages this overall, and I will say that departments are responsible for making a request to ISC to conduct a post-award audit. The audit has to be requested when there's any suspicion at all that the requirements of the applicable policy haven't been met through delivery and Indigenous Services Canada [Inaudible—Editor]—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Can I just clarify my question, Minister. I'd love to hear your response on this.

Do the requirements include that a certain percentage of subcontracts from an indigenous contracting situation go to indigenous companies? Are the subcontractors tracked in any way?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

Right now the percentage is 33%. In other words, it's the contractor's delivery of goods or services and monitoring the contractor's compliance with the 33% indigenous content requirement for contracting companies.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

That's what I was looking for. I appreciate that—the one-third requirement there.

Is that tracked?

The committee asked for subcontracting information and we received, in almost all cases, zero information about subcontracts. I'm a bit mystified about how the government would know if that requirement is being met if subcontracting is not being tracked in any case.

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I actually want to clarify my answer, then I want to add one thing.

It's 33% for the contract. That would be verified in the post-audit that ISC does.

On your question about subcontractors, I actually think it is a good point. I think that we should do continual work to be able to track the suppliers in the subcontracting process.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Minister, I really appreciate that comment. That's the first time I've ever questioned a minister and had acknowledgement of an important point.

I think there is a gap. We receive no information on subcontracts. We didn't get an answer from the previous minister, so I hope we'll have agreement from this committee, and from you, to refine that process so we're tracking subcontracting information.

I want to ask one more question on this.

There seem to be instances where a small number of companies are getting an outsized proportion of overall contracts.

How much would you say is too much for a single company to get of that total share of indigenous procurement? Keeping in mind there are over 600 indigenous communities in this country, how much would be too much for a single company to get of that total?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I do not have the ability to respond to that question without the overall amount of the actual contract.

I will say that the principle we operate under is fair, open and transparent competition. The 5% floor for indigenous contracts that we established as a government was meant to ensure indigenous suppliers have access to government contracts.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Mrs. Atwin, go ahead, please.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to address this very quickly. I see that Mr. Genuis is particularly interested in the indigenous business procurement strategy, which is great, but I would caution him to be very careful with the language he's using. I'm not sure where he's going with the words, “nominally indigenous”. I think indigenous identity is very complex. I would caution him to be careful around that discussion.

Minister, systemic racism, bias and discrimination are issues that everyone has a responsibility to resolve. Across Canada, there are still numerous barriers to entry, retention or promotion for marginalized groups in places of employment. Statistically speaking, it disproportionately impacts Black Canadians.

How is the Treasury Board working to address systemic racism and discrimination in the ranks of the public service? What benefit does the funding provided to the department in the main estimates offer to the broader public service, as well as the department itself?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I have been very pleased that, at the Treasury Board of Canada, there is a responsibility to ensure that we're addressing discrimination in the public service. Discrimination is a reality. We need to do more, and we need to do more faster. I appreciate the question. It is a priority that I am taking extremely seriously.

We have a restorative engagement program that we are responding to as a result of recommendations we received from an expert panel. In fact, I'm building on my work at the Department of National Defence, where we also had a restorative engagement program. Part of that is going to ensure that we do whatever possible to address discrimination in the public service.

In addition to the restorative engagement program, we have the supports for Black public servants that we announced in February, including supports for mental health for Black public servants by ensuring that we have Black counsellors who are able to assist where needed. In addition to that, we have the School of Public Service, where we are ensuring that there are professional development and career supports for Black public servants.

I'll say that, when I announced those supports for Black public servants, one of the Black public servants in the Government of Canada came to me and said, “My son has now said that he can see himself working in the Government of Canada.” I will say that there's way more work to do, but it gives you hope that things can get better when you hear comments like that.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Indeed. Thank you, Minister.

I now want to ask about the HR and pay systems of the public service.

As we all know, there's been much controversy surrounding the Phoenix pay system and the various issues our public servants have faced through its implementation. It certainly affected many of my constituents. I'm in the capital city of New Brunswick. There are many federal departments, and CFB Gagetown, as well.

Could you discuss how your department is working to ensure that Canada's public service receives adequate pay services, as well as any new measures that are being taken regarding the public service's human resources system?

[Anita Anand, Liberal, Oakville, ON]

I am definitely committed to making sure that federal public servants are paid properly and on time for their work. It is something that I have been focused on since my days at Public Services and Procurement Canada.

The government and a number of public service unions have reached agreements to compensate current and former employees who were affected by the implementation of the Phoenix pay system in 2016. Those agreements cover general damages from April 2016 to March 2020. All employees covered by the damages agreements have now received their general damages compensation.

Also, there is a claims process in place to allow eligible current and former employees to file claims where there are severe damages.

I will say that there continue to be issues that the government needs to address. We need to resolve outstanding pay issues for public servants. We need to modernize the processes and systems to improve the overall human resources and pay experience for employees, and we will always work with all partners, including bargaining agents, to simplify human resources and pay processes.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

That's excellent. Thank you—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You have enough time so say thanks, basically.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Okay, thank you very much, Minister.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That is all the time I have as well.

Minister and witnesses, thanks for being with us.