Public Accounts Committee on May 14th, 2024

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you.

Could you provide that report to the committee? We are very interested in the findings, since they show the progress the CBSA has made following the Auditor General's study. Can you provide us with the findings of that report, and when would you be able to provide them?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I referred to ongoing investigations, so I don't have a document or a report. I have previously expressed that these are internal examinations of employee behaviour and conduct.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

That's fine, but I'm asking you a question. Committee members, the public and taxpayers, who pay employees' salaries, want to know what is going to happen to the employees who showed poor judgment, broke the rules and squandered taxpayers' money. People want to know that.

As president of the agency, how are you going to provide those answers to taxpayers, who elect the people you are speaking with right now?

[Erin O'Gorman]

There are a few things there.

There's the issue of hospitality. Is there a link to wasting taxpayers' money there? I'm not sure.

There is a values and ethics issue at play that we will be looking at with employees who have engaged contrary to the code of conduct. I said previously that we are looking—

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Can you answer my question, please?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm sorry, but your time is up.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

I'm just looking for an answer, Mr. Chair. She didn't answer my question.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You'll have another turn.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Mr. Chair, I didn't get an answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

It's over to Mr. Desjarlais for two and a half minutes, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Utano provided oversight of a budget of $54.5 million that he was responsible for at the CBSA, in addition to overseeing 66 contractors. Are there any internal or external reviews into the $54.5-million annual budget and the 66 contractors Mr. Utano oversaw, especially in light of the fact that he pushed for specific contractors, including KPMG?

[Erin O'Gorman]

You referenced a $54-million budget. Can you tell me where that comes from?

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I believe it came from his operating accounts for the total amounts that were approved for GC Strategies, for example, and other contractors, from a total fund of $54.5 million. It could be more. Maybe you have more information on missing documents that you could suggest to us that—

[Erin O'Gorman]

I apologize, but my question is this: Is the $54 million in reference to the cost that has been put out for ArriveCAN?

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

On the total amounts that we were able to obtain from the documents provided to the Auditor General, in addition to an affidavit that was submitted that cites $54.5 million at the CBSA, the question is not so much on the amount but rather on the accountability and transparency of that fund, particularly as noted in the affidavit, or even just the overseeing of the 66 contractors.

[Erin O'Gorman]

I apologize. What are you looking for?

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

In an affidavit that was submitted in a lawsuit, he submitted the fact that he was responsible for $54.5 million in addition to overseeing 66 contractors. It's the affidavit from the lawsuit against the CBSA. Are you familiar with the lawsuit against the CBSA?

[Erin O'Gorman]

Is that the Federal Court...?

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Yes.

[Erin O'Gorman]

Yes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Have you reviewed the affidavit?

[Erin O'Gorman]

No, not personally.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I see.

In relation to the affidavit, it has been submitted that he was responsible for $54.5 million at the CBSA in addition to overseeing 66 contractors. My question is this: Given this information, whether you're just receiving it now or you had it previously, are there any internal or external investigations or reviews into that specific responsibility?

[Erin O'Gorman]

I don't know what we would review there.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

It could be conflicts of interest, fraud, corruption....