Public Accounts Committee on May 14th, 2024

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

There were only five of you. Two of them were Kristian Firth and Darren Anthony. Did they just talk to themselves?

Who organized this dinner?

[Chulaka Ailapperuma]

I believe it was Mr. Firth.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Mr. Firth organized it.

Did anyone talk to him?

[Chulaka Ailapperuma]

Other than greetings and offhand conversations about how life is, I didn't speak to him specifically.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

We have five people sitting at a table. The host invites the two government employees, a subcontractor of GC Strategies and the two principals of GC Strategies. The government employees don't speak to the dinner hosts at a table of five people.

This room has a very long format. It would be lost on people who are watching this webcast that, for different reasons, this room is set up with a very long table. Five people sitting at a table at Joey's is a bit more intimate than that. To not talk about the only business that GC Strategies does seems a bit incredible. You'd agree that this sounds....

We have this dinner, and drinks are flowing. We have contractors and subcontractors of the government taking people out, and no one's talking to them. That doesn't sound believable.

Do you think that sounds believable?

[Chulaka Ailapperuma]

I apologize if I said no one talked to them. No one talked to them about coding. We were talking about people's lives, their day-to-day family issues, as if it was a social gathering. We absolutely did not talk specifically about any contracting issues or any financial matters.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Five people who have only ArriveCAN in common sat down in a bar, and they didn't talk about ArriveCAN. They talked about kids' soccer schedules.

[Chulaka Ailapperuma]

If there was anything about ArriveCAN we talked about, it was about the challenges of implementing ArriveCAN.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Obviously, they know nothing, because they're not programmers.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

We're going back to Mrs. Shanahan for five minutes, please.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair. Again, I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here today.

Chair, I'm hearing a bit of noise. Are the interpreters okay? I'll move the microphone again.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Let me just check.

Oh no, you're correct. I'm getting a thumbs-down, so I have paused the clock.

Maybe say a few words, Mrs. Shanahan.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I have to take my glasses on and off, and I think that moves the microphone or the boom around. I apologize.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

We're good. I'm seeing smiles from the interpreters.

We'll go back to you, please. I'll resume the clock.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Again, I'd like to especially thank Ms. O'Gorman for being here today and answering all the questions that members have been putting to her.

Chair, I think you'll agree that our committee, public accounts, has a lot of important work to do on ArriveCAN. We've had multiple meetings. I think we've had over 15, 16 or 17 meetings on ArriveCAN. However, we also have other work to do in reviewing the Auditor General's reports, as well as getting out some of our draft reports from previous studies. Our work plan has been changed many times on multiple occasions, with short notice, and without consultation with all members.

Therefore, Chair, I move the following motion, which reads:

That, given that the chair has yet to table a subcommittee report for subcommittee approval, in relation to the committee's future business, it be agreed that:

(1) the committee dedicate its meeting on May 21 to follow up on the committee's recommendations (i.e. “spring cleaning”);

(2) the committee dedicate its meeting on May 23 to witness testimony from officials on “Report 6: Canadian Net-Zero Emissions Accountability Act—2030 Emissions Reduction Plan”;

(3) the committee dedicate its meeting on May 28 to the consideration of draft reports;

(4) the committee dedicate its meeting on May 30 to witness testimony on “Report 1: ArriveCAN”;

(5) the committee dedicate its regular meeting on June 4 to witness testimony on “Report 2: Housing in First Nations Communities”;

(6) the committee dedicate its meeting on June 6 in the first hour to the appearance of Minister Bill Blair on “Report 1: ArriveCAN” and the second hour to the appearance of Minister Patty Hajdu on “Report 2: Housing in First Nations Communities”; and

that the chair table reports from the Subcommittee on Agenda and Procedure at the next committee meeting for approval by the committee.

Chair, I believe that a document with the text has been sent in both English and French to the clerk. I propose that you may want to suspend while members look at that, but I am certainly able to speak to the motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Genuis, I assure you that I'm going to come right back to you. I just want to have a quick word with the clerk here for a second. Wait one second, please.

Thank you. I see hands up.

Ms. Shanahan, we're not currently in committee business. Your motion certainly is noted—with a small edit from the clerk, which I will get to at the appropriate time—so you're welcome to bring this up when we get to committee business after hearing from the witnesses.

This is not a matter-at-hand motion, so I will rule it out of order so that we can get back to our witnesses and then come back to committee business, as per the schedule.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

With all due respect, I challenge that decision.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

It is certainly your right to do that.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

You can't move a motion on a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Technically, you're right, Mr. Barrett. You cannot move a motion on a point of order. However, as the mover of the motion, she does have the floor to respond to me.

Mrs. Shanahan, just say, “I challenge the chair,” without calling a point of order.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I challenge the chair on his decision.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

All right, can we have a roll call, please, and perhaps just explain that this is...?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Hilary Smyth]

Yes. Shall the ruling of the chair be sustained?

(Ruling of the chair overturned: nays 6; yeas 4)

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

That's very good. I'm just going to suspend for three minutes and then come back, and then I'll recognize speakers.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm going to bring things back to order.

Ms. Shanahan, there is a slight change, and I'm looking for a friendly change so we don't need an amendment to it.

As you know, I give the clerk discretion to work with witnesses on their availability. The clerk informs me that on May 23 we have the secured transportation study in place of the net zero study, and the net zero study will be on June 6.

With your permission, we'd like to swap that in your motion.

You're signalling “no” to me.